Curse

HigherMinion · Nov 11, 2011, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I just tried this with my heroes and me with:-

Earth Attune
AoR
Unsteady Ground
Earthquake
Eruption
EVAS
PI
Summon Ice Imp

16 Earth, 13 ES

As I'm slightly less than thorough, and fully recognising that the first group can be rather nicely balled up by EVAS, I saw numbers of between 25 and 42 going up on between 4 - 6 targets on my cast of Unsteady Ground. Obviously as they died, the damage dropped off, and I rarely had had time to get off a cast of a second AoE before the group melted (a testament to my heroes

).

My unscientific theorem is that, over the course of a single cast of Unsteady Ground, hitting 4 enemies for an average of 30, I will average 120 DPS over the 5 second duration of Unsteady Ground.

Care to test?

Why imp over ebsoh? All that armour ignoring damage on top of UG and Ruption, it's like casting them both twice.

Mouse at Large · Nov 11, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I like the imp for snares, and as an extra meat shield, but you make a good point. In my unscientific test, the imp wasn't active, besides, the point was to see if an unbuffed DoTAoE would be effective in outputting DPS

Jeydra · Nov 12, 2011, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I just tried this with my heroes and me with:-

Earth Attune
AoR
Unsteady Ground
Earthquake
Eruption
EVAS
PI
Summon Ice Imp

16 Earth, 13 ES

As I'm slightly less than thorough, and fully recognising that the first group can be rather nicely balled up by EVAS, I saw numbers of between 25 and 42 going up on between 4 - 6 targets on my cast of Unsteady Ground. Obviously as they died, the damage dropped off, and I rarely had had time to get off a cast of a second AoE before the group melted (a testament to my heroes

).

My unscientific theorem is that, over the course of a single cast of Unsteady Ground, hitting 4 enemies for an average of 30, I will average 120 DPS over the 5 second duration of Unsteady Ground.

Care to test?

I'll test it. First looks: no energy, especially with the 25e Eruption + Earthquake and no GoLE. Will post numbers later. Same area right?

Ok first try. Energy NOT sustainable. Ice imp was summoned, LB title off, etc.

32 + 54 + 42 + 31x5 + 78x4 + 18 + 20 + 31x5 + 8 + 31x2 + 17 = 875 damage over 13s = 67.31 DPS
32 + 60 + 57 + 30x3 + 31x6 + 74 + 78 + 31x2 + 30 + 31 + 30 + 43 + 31 + 37 + 34 + 12 + 39 + 22 + 18 + 31 + 29 = 1026 damage over 21s = 48.85 DPS
32 + 50 + 60 x 3 + 31 x 9 + 22 + 21 + 105 = 689 damage over 10s = 68.9 DPS

I think that's enough to prove that E/A Air does more damage and is sustainable. The second run was especially embarrassing, with all the spells on cooldown and I was reduced to wanding

Plutoman · Nov 12, 2011, 02:48 AM // 02:48

From a guess, I believe invoke builds are the premium in ele specific builds - ie, without using/abusing PvE skills, depending on how you consider it.

For the most actual damage, I'd say E/A is a winner. However, I've never, after all this time, bothered to go get EVAS, so I go without balling from it and just use invoke, which is pretty satisfactory, if not ideal. Considering that EVAS is a pretty significant part of the damage from AP, I figured that Invoke would be superior to AP + YMLAD and FH. Either way though, I prefer trying to stick with mostly profession skills.

Mouse at Large · Nov 12, 2011, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Thanks Jeydra - I guess my own calcs were thrown off by the efficiency of my hero backup - I barely had time to get off a second AoE cast before everything died. What your figures do show I think is that it's a margin call between earth AoE and air.

Obviously there are special circumstances in the area i.e. the environmental effect and the stripping of an enchant following EVAS casting.

I think I'll leave this now to the dedicated analysts - personally speaking, I like what my build delivers for me and find it works in most circumstances as part of my (all caster) standard hero team, which fyi consists of (slightly tweaked):-

Nec minion bomber
Nec/Rt healer
SoS Rt
SoGM Rt
Panic Mes
Shared Burden Mes
Keystone Mes

A final thougth is on the "energy NOT sustainable" comment. I find I have very few energy problems. The only times would be in very long encounters (90 secs+ I'd guess) against very large mobs. I ran this in the recent Vizunah Square hm bounty for example. Maybe that's because I'm familiar with the build, choose my targets carefully and keep an eye on AoR and my attune. Without claiming any great expertise on my part, there may be a point that a player with a familiar "suboptimal" build will be better than someone button-mashing a less familiar "optimal" build

Jeydra · Nov 12, 2011, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Thanks Jeydra - I guess my own calcs were thrown off by the efficiency of my hero backup - I barely had time to get off a second AoE cast before everything died. What your figures do show I think is that it's a margin call between earth AoE and air.

Obviously there are special circumstances in the area i.e. the environmental effect and the stripping of an enchant following EVAS casting.

I think I'll leave this now to the dedicated analysts - personally speaking, I like what my build delivers for me and find it works in most circumstances as part of my (all caster) standard hero team, which fyi consists of (slightly tweaked):-

Nec minion bomber
Nec/Rt healer
SoS Rt
SoGM Rt
Panic Mes
Shared Burden Mes
Keystone Mes

A final thougth is on the "energy NOT sustainable" comment. I find I have very few energy problems. The only times would be in very long encounters (90 secs+ I'd guess) against very large mobs. I ran this in the recent Vizunah Square hm bounty for example. Maybe that's because I'm familiar with the build, choose my targets carefully and keep an eye on AoR and my attune.

You could go and get data yourself, which would fix any problems with teambuild playstyle skill etc. There are plenty of free screen capture software out there, use one and film yourself clearing whatever mob and do the counting.

Jeydra · Jan 06, 2012, 02:49 PM // 14:49

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K22dU5DnIlQ

Nice to see there's another build out there to compare against, especially post update.

I'll go try it out myself, using pre-update builds, and see what the numbers turn out as.

EDIT: Oh wait nvm, it won't be for a while - I don't have my screen capture software on this computer and don't have access to the one with that software for quite a while.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 06, 2012, 09:33 PM // 21:33

EBSoH + DoTAoE's seems to be what will make the Ele PvE Meta.

Mouse at Large · Jan 06, 2012, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

EBSoH + DoTAoE's seems to be what will make the Ele PvE Meta.

That's what I've been banging on about for ages. This update tweaks the elites, but to be really useful, the non-elites need to be adjusted as well.

Kunder · Jan 06, 2012, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

EBSoH + DoTAoE's seems to be what will make the Ele PvE Meta.

Coupled with potential 19/20 in an attribute as well. On some (non-dot) spells Elemental Attunement is basically another EBSoH worth of damage added on.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 06, 2012, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

That's what I've been banging on about for ages. This update tweaks the elites, but to be really useful, the non-elites need to be adjusted as well.

If I'm not mistaken, I think the tweaks to the non-elite skills are coming next. They wanted to get the big changes out of the way first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Coupled with potential 19/20 in an attribute as well. On some (non-dot) spells Elemental Attunement is basically another EBSoH worth of damage added on.

But you lose an elite, and when its something like Double Dragon, Searing Flames, or Shockwave, you lose more damage than the +2 attributes are worth.

Life Bringing · Jan 07, 2012, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K22dU5DnIlQ

Nice to see there's another build out there to compare against, especially post update.

I'll go try it out myself, using pre-update builds, and see what the numbers turn out as.

EDIT: Oh wait nvm, it won't be for a while - I don't have my screen capture software on this computer and don't have access to the one with that software for quite a while.

And then you pay a friendly visit to forgewight and wonder why your entire party is on top of each other.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2012, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Pretty sure players wouldn't run Ele ball against Forgewight. That's like bringing Searing Flames against Destroyers. Come on now.

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

And then you pay a friendly visit to forgewight and wonder why your entire party is on top of each other.

Ok now, just to clarify my video since its been linked here.

The video is NOT a serious build that has been tested anywhere else in the game. It was simply a quick throwing together of updated skills and a test of their damage on just a few mobs that were in between me and my next dungeon.

I do not claim that this build is any kind of new meta, or valid in 100% of the game, absolutely no single team build can claim to be 100% universal, everyone has to make changes and adapt to whatever area they are currently playing.

I am however fully confident that I, and anyone else can now complete everything in HM PVE with a team of 6, and most things with a team of 8 elementalists by simply adapting their builds to whatever works in the area.

Just because someone runs a skill test after an update is done is not a conclusion that this is any kind of be all, end all build that will work everywhere in the game, and my personal opinion on the OPs AP build is that it is not representative at all of elementalist skills as it barely uses any.

Comparing the AP build to a full elly skill build makes about as much sense as comparing an E/Mo prot to Savannah Heat, and concluding that E/Mo prot is a terrible build because it does 0 damage compared to whatever the Savannah Heat build does.

Jeydra · Jan 08, 2012, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I am however fully confident that I, and anyone else can now complete everything in HM PVE with a team of 6, and most things with a team of 8 elementalists by simply adapting their builds to whatever works in the area.

Do Foundry HM or Gloom HM, then, and post a screenshot. Go ahead and display your Lightbringer title, but if you use consumables I'll just laugh.

Wenspire · Jan 08, 2012, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Enviro effects skew the effectiveness of certain group-builds, so I wouldn't consider those areas as a good indication.

bhavv · Jan 08, 2012, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Do Foundry HM or Gloom HM, then, and post a screenshot. Go ahead and display your Lightbringer title, but if you use consumables I'll just laugh.

Actually, you go ahead and do the same with a full team of Invoke ellys first. Until you do, I'll carry on laughing at you.

On the other hand, I would think that your challenge would be easily doable if you had a paragon primary and a team of starburst heroes.

Jeydra · Jan 08, 2012, 10:52 AM // 10:52

So much for being "fully confident" you can clear any area in PvE with 8 Eles ...

FYI I never said anything about using ALL Invoke Eles, but I'm pretty confident I can do either area using at least one Invoke Ele, even post nerf.

bhavv · Jan 08, 2012, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Absolutely anyone can do anything in the game with one invoke elly, there are 7 other skill bars in the party.

Ok to clarify - my 'everything in HM PVE' means missions, vanqs, dungeons, the things that people normally use heroes for. Elite areas I didnt consider as I've already done them enough for my titles and Tormented weapon for HoM.

DoA - its easy enough finding a random pug with DWG (or at least it was pre nerf) that can speed clear the area, so there was never any need for me to use heroes there.

However, I dont consider that your single invoke, or AP elly is the reason for why your group succeeds, both these roles are easily replaceable without losing any effectiveness in your group.

Jeydra · Jan 08, 2012, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Epic attitude mate - if I can't do DoA HM with heroes, I'll find a pug that can do it! If I can't do Duncan HM with heroes, I'll find a pug that can do it! If I can't do Minister Cho's Estate NM with heroes, I'll find a pug that can do it!

Just admit you can't do DoA HM with heroes. I'm done until you actually post something useful.